Creating a Culture of Trust and Transparency (Bonnie’s Interview on Instill Culture Lab)

Bonnie Evangelista [00:00:04]:
Hey, Team Bonnie here from the chief digital and Artificial Intelligence Office. We've got a great episode today. It's a bonus episode this week of an interview that I did with the Instill Culture Lab series with Dan Casper from instill. Anyone who knows me knows that I love any opportunity to talk about culture. It's the one thing I think leaders agree critical, but it's the last thing they tend to take seriously. So during my conversation with Dan, we talked about how to create a loyal culture, why transparency is key to articulating your why, and how to transform traditional mindsets towards new technology. So don't forget culture. Each strategy for breakfast, any day, every day, all the time.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:00:44]:
I hope you enjoy this one.

Dan Kasper [00:00:48]:
Hi, and welcome to the Instill Culture lab. My name is Dan and I'll be your guide, where over the next 20 minutes, we host world class leaders and culture practitioners that have truly earned their wisdom in the category we're going to explore in a laboratory like format how they handle tough situations, not the theory, but the true practice. And the goal is to better equip ourselves with some additional tools that we can use as we build our own teams, culture, and lead our people organizations. Today I'm joined by Bonnie Evangelista. Bonnie is a master strategist who is dedicated to simplifying complex processes in transforming traditional models and mindsets. She currently works at the Department of Defense chief digital and AI office, but has also led teams at the defense cyber operations for the US army and also DoD joint AI center. I know she's going to have some fantastic perspective on today's case studies. Bonnie, welcome to the lab.

Dan Kasper [00:01:39]:
So happy to have you.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:01:40]:
Thanks. This will be fun. I'm excited to talk about culture likewise.

Dan Kasper [00:01:44]:
Too, and especially with your background in the defense space and AI space, it's just going to be a really fun blend of how do we use technology to make us more human and really augment our human experience at work. So today we're going to jump into some case studies surrounding a recent saga that has been all over the news with Sam Altman and OpenAI and what that can teach us about culture and teams and also discuss how to transform some traditional mindsets on new technology. I know that's one of your passions and your expertise, too. So really excited to jump in. Let's just jump right into the first case study specifically surrounding OpenAI. It's been an interesting saga, as we just mentioned, and it's been a focus in so many different news outlets over the last few weeks. But as a leader really curious to your perspective. How do you, or how have you, with all your vast experience, created a culture where your team is willing to walk out the door for you? That's such an interesting piece.

Dan Kasper [00:02:36]:
Sam was let go by the board, and essentially the team said, hey, if he's going, I'm going. That's a really unique culture insight. Like, how do you go about creating a culture?

Bonnie Evangelista [00:02:45]:
Like, I will say, it took me a long time to realize that leaders can happen at any level. I didn't understand that when I was kind of a journeyman in my career, that even at that point, early on, I was impacting, influencing, and shaping others around me. So I would encourage everyone to understand that it's not just the Sam Altman's of the world who are leading and shaping cultures. Of course, those people are doing top down, I would say culture shaping. However, there are subcultures within every organization, and that's kind of, I like to say, the practitioners of the world, the acting officers, as we like to say in the military, you too can create your own subcultures within your enterprise culture. So in terms of getting to the point where whether you're Sam Altman or not, if you have people that have formed around you, that usually means you have created a vision that they believe in, or you have a set of values that they share or admire, and they want to either learn from or they respect and understand that not only who you are, but what you stand a. I always like to refer to pop culture. Sometimes in these moments in the play Hamilton, there is a scene between Hamilton and Burr where they're doing the singing.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:04:25]:
And one of the tension points between Alexander Hamilton and Burr is he doesn't know what Burr stands for. And so the constant tension throughout their lives and through the revolution and the aftermath of the revolution, he continues to see Burr either playing sides and not taking a stand for something. So that's kind of what I'm talking about, is a lot of people, I go back to values, and that sounds very simple, but either what you're doing is exuding a certain value. It's less about what you say, it's really more about what you do, in my experience. So going back, kind of, that was a long, roundabout way of going back to your original question. How do you create the culture? I tend to have a bias toward action. So the actions that you take, the choices that you make every day, is creating a culture. And then the people who are willing to follow you along the way, a lot of people might not think that that's possible, but it absolutely is possible.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:05:28]:
And that's kind of my take on it.

Dan Kasper [00:05:32]:
Way to open Bonnie with a mike drought statement. I love that essentially, the concept of, hey, leadership happens at every level, period. And so while the Sam Altman kind of case study that we're talking about has, of course, been publicized so much because of his role and also the sheer size of OpenAI and what it's doing, I love how you broke that down. I mean, leadership happens at every level. Like, no matter where we could be the newest person on the team. But if we have a series of values that people resonate, if we think about putting others before us and how do we work together, that strong culture can happen at every level. So I think that's such an interesting piece to immediately say, sure, this is a case study, but it doesn't just happen at the open ais of the world or it doesn't just happen at the executive level. No matter where we are on the team, it's partially our responsibility to help the culture be put in a place where there is this bond between, there's this trust level, this psychological safety that's in place to really help us achieve things together and accomplish that shared vision.

Dan Kasper [00:06:33]:
So a lot of what I thought was interesting, too, is like one. Your analogy, I think, was spot on, too. But there are things that we can do to help to build this strong culture. And a lot of it you mentioned, too, is about values. It's about being biased to action. Are there any other tips or tricks that you've learned or experienced or done within your leadership roles that helps to create this strong of a culture where people will literally walk out of their job for you, even if it's not at the executive level.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:07:03]:
The first thing that came to mind, and I'm hesitating because it sounds so simple, but I've seen it done in practice, and I just want to reiterate it and footstop it as much as I can. And this is kind of how I operate as well. Relationships should be number one priority. If we are operating for whatever your mission is, I'm speaking, know, a department of defense person. So we're very mission oriented. And whatever your company's mission is, I'm speaking to, usually it's not. I'm also got some steal line from somebody. Think her name is Cody Sanchez.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:07:51]:
She's an amazing public figure out there, maybe influencer who talks a lot about business and whatnot. And she said, it's not about the what, it's about the who or it's not about the how, it's about the who. And I like to think about. We are always one person removed from whatever our dreams are. And if we are out there creating relationships, and even if we're not sure where the relationship is going to take us, there can only be goodness that comes from that. So in terms of creating culture, if part of your culture values doesn't include that, I'm not sure how far it will go. And even in my own career, I've seen this personally. Your technical smarts can only take you so far career wise, if your ambitions are beyond, I would say, an operator, hands on keyboard type of level.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:08:52]:
Those soft skills, whether you call it emotional intelligence, your EQ, whatever that is for you, if you're not honing in on that and trying to build those bridges, create those networks, and understand how you can be a conduit for other people and actually apply reciprocity. That sounds so simple, but that's something I always spit stomp in the department, because sometimes reciprocity means showing up, especially in a virtual age where we're all like teams are virtual, and it's hard to show up for people. What does showing up mean for people in a virtual world? But that means a lot. For example, on my side, to end users or soldiers and people who are at boots on the ground, showing up for them is like a great start to a relationship, as an example. And then seeing where that takes you has always been a key strategy in terms of what is our culture. So if we're letting the taskers and the emails and the briefs become more important in relationships, I would rethink or regroup on that.

Dan Kasper [00:10:09]:
Yes, I couldn't agree more. And that really resonates with me, too. My background is somewhat similar to yours. I did six and a half years in Navy special operations. And one of the things that they talk about in those types of communities too, is how do you create that type of team where people have your back to that level? And that's essentially what we're seeing in this case study with Sam Altman and even in other organizations. Being on a team where, you know, people have your back is such a foundational piece to creating high performing teams, and it's essential. And it's not just do I know this person is going to do their job, but I think it goes deeper. It's exactly as you were saying is, do I know this person? One has my back and has my best interests in mind.

Dan Kasper [00:10:46]:
And so that relationship lens, I think, feeds so well into that we need to know, as humans, other people have my best interests in mind. And if I know that this person does, then I'm going to reciprocate exactly as you say. And now that link is formed, and now we do that with others, and then we create this team that is nearly unstoppable, where, hey, one person goes and, you know, they're critical to the team, then the others are considering walking out, too. So things like you said, like having a mission focused, even if it's not in the military, super critical values. Super critical. Talking about who we're building the team with, like who is in the seats, how can we create that energy together? And then, eq, all the things you just mentioned, I think are absolutely 100% critical to creating that foundational team where, you know, you have each other's backs.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:11:33]:
And I'll add, because I feel like we're saying this without saying it, fundamentally, to have a relationship, like a true relationship with someone, it comes down to trust. And again, I feel like this is a textbook thing. You can read in any book, but I've known it and I've seen it in my career over and over again. And ultimately, that bond you're talking about, it comes down to trust. And you can't build or create trust without the things you're describing. Even spending time with an individual or a partner in a way that matters to them, to your point, how do they know that? You have their back, and that's different for everybody. But you don't know that until you show up as an example or until you show up in a way that matters. I like to make an intention or an intentional attempt to break bread with people, because I feel like people start to open up, maybe in a way that is less about work and more in a way that is relatable if you're sharing a meal with somebody and a super simple thing.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:12:50]:
But it takes intent to do those things because we can get very overwhelmed by the minutiae.

Dan Kasper [00:12:57]:
Yeah, very well said, too. And this is what I love about the concept of the culture lab that we're doing, too. Sure, you can read. Trust is important. And a blog, right? But exactly as you're mentioning, you're saying exactly the why behind and how it is critical and how you've seen that being critical. So that's the fun part, is these concepts are, while you may say, oh, that's relationships. But it's so easily to skip over, so easy not to focus on things like simple, like humans connect through eating. And so how can we build that into some of our workflows, that creates that depth to relationships, that, again, is a springboard for when we're working together, that we know who each other are, that we can trust each other, and we can go forth and conquer and work towards that mission accomplishment because we know we care for each other.

Dan Kasper [00:13:41]:
So I think that's such an interesting piece and shifting gears to almost the other side of the coin in some of the Sam Altman saga. And, you know, interesting how the board handled this conversation. So let's put ourselves in the position of the board, kind of the opposite of Sam. But one of the interesting pieces that I also read through this saga is that the board made this decision to let Sam go, didn't really articulate it, the why behind it, and then it started to unravel. So I think this is, again, a really interesting case study of, we talked about the hulu and the what the now. I'd love to get to the why, because I think that in this element of the story really led to some unraveling. So what do you do if you were the board of OpenAI and making this call? And it's a difficult call, but how do you better communicate the changes and also the decision making and the overall why to potentially avoid this unraveling like we saw a few weeks ago?

Bonnie Evangelista [00:14:35]:
Yeah, I will say in general, when you were describing, there was a lack of the why and there was a lack of communication, lack of transparency, however you want to call it, anytime things like that are happening, or God forbid, the people inside the company are finding out about things from the media before they find out from their own leadership. It goes back to what we just talked about. It starts to break down trust, and it starts to make people question the values that their own leadership are promoting or showing them and demonstrating for them. I would say that as an employee doesn't know what they stand for anymore, because on a piece of paper, it says, oh, we value x, y, and z, but they're doing something that might be indirect conflict of that because they're not communicating. So how they communicate better, I hate to say it depends, but everyone's always going to question why something's not being shared. And we deal with this in contracts because there's a lot of things we are allowed or not allowed to share. And if you're not thinking, I would ask, why can't we share it all the time? Like, the first question when I'm doing contracting for the Department of Defense is, is there a reason or a law or a rule why we can't share this. That's like question one.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:16:13]:
Otherwise, just share as much as you can. Make everyone as informed as possible to understand why action or step one or two is happening as a result of the previous step and whatnot. Sorry, I was hesitating because I was going to say it creates a little bit of predictability. I don't think that's the right word. I think it's a little stability. It creates more stability that people can rely on, and that goes back to who's got your back and whatnot. And are they demonstrating the values that I think they would like to see? Their leaders, the leaders that they are choosing to follow, show them or demonstrate to them?

Dan Kasper [00:17:03]:
Yeah, no, I think very well said and articulated. And it also is really interesting how well connected it is just to the birth question. Even though we're looking at a complete opposite perspective here, like trust is so critical. The values are critical of what we're doing here. And then the why. If we look at our a players, or think about in our past, the a players that we work with, super mission focused, likely, and they also are independent thinkers. They're independent thinkers in the way that there's. How many problems do we solve on a daily basis, whether big or small, like thousands of problems.

Dan Kasper [00:17:35]:
Right. And you want independent thinkers to help you accomplish your mission and to consider all the variables and then make the decision that's best for them. Those independent thinkers require a why if you want them to operate and make decisions on what's best for the team and the company. If you want them to take baseline inputs, it's almost like we were talking about it with your background, like machine learning, but we're actually doing human learning. We're taking all these inputs and we need to know the why behind this so we can alter our approach and do what's best for the company as well, and know that our work is aligning towards the ideal outcome. And so taking away that why is immediately going to pull the rug out from all of your a players and likely more other players as well. Because we don't know what we're working for. And if we're starting to see conflict of how the board is dealing with situations differently from what their expectation is of, so they have this expectation for us, they're doing things differently.

Dan Kasper [00:18:25]:
That's breaking trust immediately, too, losing credibility. And then even furthermore, if we, as the board, let's say, are worried about this getting phrased out wrong, but it gets out and we hear it from the media. Now we're not controlling messaging. That's like the third strike here. So I agree. I think bad news doesn't get better with time. I had an old mentor say to me, so how can we, if we're leading this decision, even if it's one that is difficult to voice with the team because he is a beloved CEO, articulate the why. Let's be transparent.

Dan Kasper [00:18:55]:
What are we doing to making sure that your mission is still going on? How can we head this off in an open and transparent way? And another thing I thought was interesting too, is if we can intelligently articulate the why to our team. And likely you should probably consider the decision more as well. So I think what you said is really interesting too. The importance of why, how this still connects to trust. And it doesn't just apply to team members, like, even concepts as the board is just equally as important, if not more important.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:19:23]:
Yeah. I would also offer. You called them the individual thinkers. I would call them likely your high performers. I'll go out and say your ten percenters in the organization that are getting stuff done are choosing to be there and they're not going to settle. So to your point, if they're not seeing, whether it's the vision or the stability they need or the top cover, they need to do what they do to get stuff done. You're absolutely right. They're not going to hesitate to walk away.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:20:03]:
I'll also offer if going back to, like, if I was sitting in the seat of the board, of course, one of my first, like I said, recommendations is I would be asking myself, why can't we share anything? What are the consequences of sharing everything we know and understanding where our blockers are issues? Because there's a whole multitude of consequences there. But if my approach is, I'll call it, because I'm in a military setting, if I use the hammer approach all the time, and if my mindset is I expect people to just follow me in my guidance in my direction, that's, I would say, a fail. To begin with, you have to change your mindset and going back to relationships. If you make a decision such as the Sam Olin one, and just expect people to pick it up and follow along, that's a flawed way of thinking. And if you're not thinking, what are the. Again, the consequences for making the decision? And what's the emotional, not attachment. But how do I address the emotions that are going to come with making the decision? Because there might be fear, there might be anger, sadness. I don't even know what emotions and if you're not thinking through that, or at least trying to think through that again, to me, another fail as a person sitting in that seat.

Dan Kasper [00:21:31]:
Yes, agreed. The leadership failures are a strong thing to what not to do. But just as you mentioned, too, like three easy steps, not only ask why, but ask why not. I think that's a powerful thing, too. Why not? Is it just because we didn't really think about it or why? So why not, I think is a powerful question. Second point, I thought hammers don't work. There are very few situations, even like in the teams that in the military.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:21:56]:
All the time, right.

Dan Kasper [00:21:57]:
Even when I'm getting shot at, very few situations, hammered situations work as leadership, frankly. And then third of which is the emotional impact. We're humans. There's ways that we are wired to build teams and performance and to work together as a community. And so things like this have an impact on us that we need to address and leader as well. So very. Again, I love your succinctness in terms of outlining that as well. Now, last case study for us today, but I feel like we could keep jamming for a while.

Dan Kasper [00:22:24]:
It is really one of the many interesting points of your biography, Bonnie, is I think the concept of ability to transform conventional mindsets push the status quo forward. I think that definitely energizes me. But let's say you're a leader on a team where there is a lot of skepticism on new tools. And let's go into AI specifically. Your background is in it. We're just talking about AI as well. And let's say that there's so much skepticism on the use of AI that the executive team at this hypothetical company has actually outlawed its use of gen AI at work. You feel like your company is now going to get left in the dust because this is, other companies are using it.

Dan Kasper [00:23:03]:
It's just part of almost like our everyday work now. But how do you go about changing mindsets to be more open to, in this case, AI?

Bonnie Evangelista [00:23:12]:
Yeah, I hate to be a broken record might seem super simple in conversation, but it also can be super simple in application. And rather than not just focusing on the why, which we've already had a ton of conversation about the importance of the why. But if you can approach a conversation, especially like this one, where you're proposing to change a status quo, that could mean a tool, a way of doing business, a process. You mentioned AI that is most definitely like AI tools right now. There's a lot of free AI tech out there, and then there's even a lot of movement to integrate this bleeding edge capability into existing systems in my environment as well. And how do you do that? In my opinion, you have to start with the problem you're trying to solve. So if you can't start with that value proposition up front in terms of how it's going to improve someone's life, excuse me, or a team's lives, and that can mean a multitude of different things. You mentioned you have a military background, so it can be a soldier perspective.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:24:33]:
It could also be, I told you, I was the contract clerk. It could be a business perspective, like an administrative specialist or this can vary. And that's why having I always tell industry when we talk to them, you have to have absolute clarity right now as to who you are selling to, who is the end user, who's the consumer of your tool or product, and how are you making their life better? And again, the answer to that can be very different. So in terms of AI, how can AI make your life better? Right now there is a lot of conversation about reducing lead times or the time to get work done, essentially, but you can't just stay at that, I would say macro level. You have to go deeper, please. And if you're proposing a tool or you're proposing a different way of doing business, again, how is this going to change this person's life for the better? I would start there for sure.

Dan Kasper [00:25:33]:
Yeah, I think that's really well said. Like start with the problem statement. And the problem statement could be maybe educational to get the goals across. Anyways, if we take the use case of AI, we could say, hey, there's all sorts of unstructured data that our company has right now that we're not using. AI can help us take all that unstructured data, leverage different angles on it, and use it to make us more productive. It can connect us more, it can make recommendations on how we can improve productivity. So I think it's a really interesting point, almost like we're starting a business and we start with a problem statement. If we kind of apply that concept is like, hey, let's start with a problem statement.

Dan Kasper [00:26:13]:
Or hey, it's taking me 3 hours, I'm a hiring manager and it's taking me 2 hours, or whatever that may be, to write a good job description that gets top players wanting. But actually I cut that down to 15 minutes with using some Chat GPT tools or something of the sort. Now I can do six of these and we can hire. So I think you're exactly right. What is the problem and can we apply some data to that and showing, almost opening some eyes through, like, here's the problem, here's the fix, here's what's going to do for us.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:26:42]:
Yeah, I always say absolute clarity on that alone. You can't really go anywhere from there if you don't have that. But once you have that, I believe the next step is very similar to what we were talking about with the board use case, where you can't start the conversation with a group of people. I'm assuming that you may or may not have a relationship with them and say, I have the thing that's going to change your life. You kind of have to know what they're thinking and address it up front. And actually, I learned this tip from a group we're working with right now. We're doing a lot of investing a lot in culture right now because we're kind of trying to do this not just from an AI perspective. It's like, how do you buy AI perspective? And that requires different mindsets and ways of thinking.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:27:32]:
And so we like to employ accusation audits up front. So before you even introduce the tool for the new way of doing business, you kind of try to address the big rocks you think are going to be barriers to the conversation. For us, it's like people are afraid of breaking the law or they're afraid that they're not going to have the top cover they need to do business. And so you kind of address that up front and say, hey, I know this is going to be different. And I know you might be afraid of x, y, or z, or you might be resistant because of x, y, or z. And then you segue into the here's how I'm going to make your life better. The conversation becomes less about the obstacles and it becomes more about adoption. Or at least that's been what I found.

Dan Kasper [00:28:20]:
I mean, that also feeds into what I think in the first question you talked about EQ, right? So how do we put ourselves and have empathy towards our prospective users right from the get go? And if we truly understand or empathetic to maybe there's fear involved or maybe there's a lack of understanding, or maybe they've used it in the past. If we can, like you mentioned, have this accusation on it, which is a sweet term.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:28:48]:
I'll totally credit that to a company called gaping void. That's not my turn.

Dan Kasper [00:28:52]:
Yeah, well, the concept, I think, is really helpful to just understand. Right. And so understanding the problem, putting ourselves in the position of the users or whoever, going to be kind of we're solving for and say, what are those main friction points? And if we say, we start with that and some proposals, like you said, it could be interesting way to head off, get people to relax a little bit. Oh, they are addressing some of my concerns. My own mind then becomes a little bit more open than if we just jump into, like skip three steps and don't bring that EQ power head in the.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:29:22]:
Yeah, yeah.

Dan Kasper [00:29:24]:
Awesome. Well, this has been super fun. Bonnie, thanks so much for joining us on our session today. And also thank you to our audience for joining us on the instill culture lab. Remember that creating world class cultures is a continuous process. And Bonnie mentioned this earlier. It's not a single thing we do that's going to create a high performing team or a world class culture. It's these little things we do over time, not just at the executive level, but every level.

Dan Kasper [00:29:45]:
So really appreciate everyone tuning in and hope you can use some of these tools and great processes and formulas that Bonnie shared with us today to help you build a world class culture. Thanks, everyone. Chat soon.